Curse

Forgotton200 · Nov 21, 2008, 02:48 AM // 02:48

While I was observing GvG for hours, I started to see that some classes are almost non-existant. All I see in GvG are mostly warriors, monks, and rangers. Actually, tons of warriors and monks. I know warriors are very strong atm so I can see the reason why people use this often. I hardly see paragons, dervish, ele, necro, assassin. Is this just coincidence or does most people just uses mostly those classes in GvG? Dervish is another character I like and wanted to level it up to do GvG but I couldn't find any on GvG(I did find one but they were using a spears/shield combo) so I was thinking I'll have hard time finding a good guild for this character. Maybe it's a coincidence that I couldn't find a single scythe wielding dervish in observation mode or maybe they aren't wanted in any GvG and etc. There isn't much information in search regarding this except for all the overpowered classes.

fowlero · Nov 21, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Simply put, dervishes lack the utility that warriors have.

They have IAS's but they're not very accessible, although they do have good speed boosts. However mainly they don't have interupts or knockdowns on their primary profession. Whereas warriors have all of these, including 3 sec kd's using stonefists leaving the 2nd profession open to more useful things such as your classic shock/conjure/shadowstep/meteorshowere...

So yeah thats why dervishes get less use.

Forgotton200 · Nov 21, 2008, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

Simply put, dervishes lack the utility that warriors have.

They have IAS's but they're not very accessible, although they do have good speed boosts. However mainly they don't have interupts or knockdowns on their primary profession. Whereas warriors have all of these, including 3 sec kd's using stonefists leaving the 2nd profession open to more useful things such as your classic shock/conjure/shadowstep/meteorshowere...

So yeah thats why dervishes get less use.

I was reading some thread about dervish being good in GvG here http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0299155&page=2

But I guess this has been changed since even though these things have been said, I still hardly see any dervishes in an actual GvG. I guess using search isn't reliable due to the high amounts of nerf/buffs in this game. My guess is that, dervishes never got nerfed but warriors got buffed up to make them dominant in the current GvG correct?

ALF71BE · Nov 21, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Wrong, dervishes got nerfed.

They were too powerful.

ac1inferno · Nov 21, 2008, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Paragons used to be used a lot in GvG for support. They were usually [[Cruel Spear], [[Expel Hexes], or [[Defensive Anthem]. I don't know why they aren't used anymore. Just seem to fell out of meta.

Dervishes used to be used also. Most of them spammed [[Wounding Strike]. But warriors had more utility and could pressure/spike better.

Eles used to be used for blinding or snaring. But [[Blinding Surge] was nerfed and Mesmer's Fast Cast Water Snare replaced Ele snarers.

Necros were used before also. They played a lot of roles in support. From antimelee to enchantment removal and also helped monks remove conditions with [[Foul Feast]. I don't know why they fell out of meta either.

Assassins were once used for splits. But nowadays, people rather have someone that can split and also be useful to the team when they're not splitting.

Mesmers are used a lot in GvG to shutdown or to fast cast snares.

Monks are needed. It's true that other professions can heal, but Monks can prot also.

Rangers are used a lot because they can spread degen for pressure and can also interrupt. They also have high survivability so they can split off.

Rts were once used a lot as support for Monks. But nowadays, they are usually the flag runners.

Warriors are used a lot mainly because they have knock downs and that can help pressure/spike better.

Forgotton200 · Nov 21, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

Wrong, dervishes got nerfed.

They were too powerful.

I see, and now, since dervishes are hardly seen in GvG, I guess they got nerfed a bit too much. I have been told this game was balanced when I bought this game(which is recent) but I guess this isn't actually the case.

ALF71BE · Nov 21, 2008, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Since the introduction of Nightfall, that hasn't been the case.

Forgotton200 · Nov 21, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

Since the introduction of Nightfall, that hasn't been the case.

According to ac1inferno, looks like warriors, monks, mesmer, rangers are the most wanted atm forr GvG. I had no idea this was the case since Nightfall, since I always read Guild wars has the most balanced PvP, GvG system currently. All the other classes are unfortunate and I hope they would at least have some use in the future.

DarkNecrid · Nov 21, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

I see, and now, since dervishes are hardly seen in GvG, I guess they got nerfed a bit too much. I have been told this game was balanced when I bought this game(which is recent) but I guess this isn't actually the case.

Balanced does not mean that everything is equal and of equal use. Chess is balanced but you're kidding yourself if you think the Pawn is equal to the Queen in power. The game is still far more balanced than other prospects out there.

ac1inferno · Nov 21, 2008, 05:24 AM // 05:24

It's not always going to be completely balanced, but the developers say they try to.

Forgotton200 · Nov 21, 2008, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Balanced does not mean that everything is equal and of equal use. Chess is balanced but you're kidding yourself if you think the Pawn is equal to the Queen in power. The game is still far more balanced than other prospects out there.

The way I see chess is that, the player is the "character (for ex: a warrior character)" and the pieces on the board is the skills (ex: warriors endurance, etc.). I know pawn isn't equal to queen but both player has access to the same "skill." In GW from what I hear, no matter what a dervish does, he'll never be versatile as an warrior and doesn't have the spike as a warrior. Sine dervish are meant to deal damage, a warrior that can deal better damage/defense and also have knockdowns is better no matter how I see it. Of course making a perfect balance in game is impossible but this is going a little far.

But you're right, it still is better than the other games. Previously, I played a game where first person to hit a button automatically wins.

DarkNecrid · Nov 21, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

The way I see chess is that, the player is the "character (for ex: a warrior character)" and the pieces on the board is the skills (ex: warriors endurance, etc.). I know pawn isn't equal to queen but both player has access to the same "skill." In GW from what I hear, no matter what a dervish does, he'll never be versatile as an warrior and doesn't have the spike as a warrior. Sine dervish are meant to deal damage, a warrior that can deal better damage/defense and also have knockdowns is better no matter how I see it. Of course making a perfect balance in game is impossible but this is going a little far.

But you're right, it still is better than the other games. Previously, I played a game where first person to hit a button automatically wins.

Dervishes aren't actually that worse than Warrior's, they're just overshadowed by a pretty ridiculous elite that Warrior's have right now. Then again the only thing that really makes Dervishes super awesome is a couple of ridiculous elites of their own.

It's all about trade offs, yeah Warriors can deal better single target offense over time and have more armor and knockdowns, but Dervishes have an AoE attack, better spike potential thanks to a higher end damage value, and such. Their tradeoffs are lower armor and that 99% of their stuff is strippable. Assassins can theoretically do way more damage than both but they are insanely frail and one missed hit ruins their chances.

Dervishes weren't even nerfed, I don't know who said they did but they haven't been touched at all for the last couple balances, the problem is is that other classes just got buffed way too much.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 21, 2008, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

So yeah thats why dervishes get less use.

Dervishes don't get used anymore because VoD is gone.

urania · Nov 21, 2008, 08:24 AM // 08:24

most non-core proffs only got used over the core ones when/if they were broken or overpowered in one way or the other.

realtalk916 · Nov 21, 2008, 09:58 AM // 09:58

i think most guilds use sort of the same stradegy, but i do see mesmers paras, and others, not just monks and rangers and warriors.

imo, dervs are never gonna be as good as warriors.

and also dont say u'll never find a good guild, im in a great guild, we never do gvg, doesnt mean its not great

dilan155 · Nov 21, 2008, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Paragons used to be used a lot in GvG for support. They were usually [[Cruel Spear], [[Expel Hexes], or [[Defensive Anthem]. I don't know why they aren't used anymore. Just seem to fell out of meta.

Dervishes used to be used also. Most of them spammed [[Wounding Strike]. But warriors had more utility and could pressure/spike better.

Eles used to be used for blinding or snaring. But [[Blinding Surge] was nerfed and Mesmer's Fast Cast Water Snare replaced Ele snarers.

Necros were used before also. They played a lot of roles in support. From antimelee to enchantment removal and also helped monks remove conditions with [[Foul Feast]. I don't know why they fell out of meta either.

Assassins were once used for splits. But nowadays, people rather have someone that can split and also be useful to the team when they're not splitting.

Mesmers are used a lot in GvG to shutdown or to fast cast snares.

Monks are needed. It's true that other professions can heal, but Monks can prot also.

Rangers are used a lot because they can spread degen for pressure and can also interrupt. They also have high survivability so they can split off.

Rts were once used a lot as support for Monks. But nowadays, they are usually the flag runners.

Warriors are used a lot mainly because they have knock downs and that can help pressure/spike better.

this is a pretty accurate explanation of which ones are in which are bit. its like fashion some goes out of style others stay in style.

ALF71BE · Nov 21, 2008, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Dervishes weren't even nerfed, I don't know who said they did but they haven't been touched at all for the last couple balances, the problem is is that other classes just got buffed way too much.

so i herd avatars were nerfd

DarkNecrid · Nov 21, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

so i herd avatars were nerfd

Balthazar, Lyssa, Melandru, and Dwayna haven't been touched since 4/5/07, and Grenth hasn't been touched since 2/8/08, so yes they were changed several months/a year ago, which just so happens to not be anywhere near a couple balance updates ago, the time that Dervsmite was ran, or the Wounding Strike derv meta.

Skyy High · Nov 21, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Only 8 professions can play in a GvG at once. There are 10 professions in the game. Some professions are always going to be excluded, that's just the way it is. It doesn't help that all of the expansion professions - ritualist, assassin, dervish, paragon - use gameplay mechanics that are either completely broken or pretty much useless. Paragons and ritualists can provide unstrippable defenses, and also combine high defense and support with decent offense in one class, which can (and has) lead to gimmicky builds. Assassins' shadow steps removed movement skill from the game until they were nerfed, and their spikes could kill any unprotted player in about 2 seconds effortlessly and without any skill required. Dervishes are powerful, high damage, AoE warriors that don't have to worry about adrenaline and can spike on command; the only thing holding them back is a lack of utility.

Is the game balanced? Yes, it is; about a year ago, these classes were running rampant in GvG in all manner of gimmicky builds that took little skill to run and way too much to defeat. Each of the classes still has a place in GvG, and can still be used to some extent, but the reason you don't see them on observer so often is because classes like the warrior, ranger, monk, and mesmer have more room available for an excellent player to distance himself from a bad player, or even an average player. Obs mode only looks at the top guilds, but guilds with lower ratings undoubtedly still use those classes.

moriz · Nov 21, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

mitch is right on regarding dervishes. with VoD gone, auto-AoE is no longer useful. the only real reason why people ran dervishes before during the VoD-era was because their massive sundering-crit uberleet AoE attacks, combined with VoD damage boost, caused npcs to explode. without VoD and npcs being non-factors, all dervishes have going for them are their huge damage hits, which are more or less outweighed by a warrior's versatility.

assassins fell in the same predicament. they were only used before to take out opposing npcs before VoD hit. now with no VoD, npcs are a lot less valuable and assassins became useless. they still retain their huge spike potential, but those spikes can be completely negated by a single spirit bond. as a general rule, the effectiveness of an assassin is inversely proportional to the number of players involved in a battle. assassins excel in small skirmishes with less available defense. in an 8v8 fight, they simply cannot compete with the warrior.

lastly, paragons also suffered from the lack of VoD. one of their key functions were to maintain partywide defenses through their shouts and chants at VoD, so their team and NPCs (at least npcs initially, since most shouts and chants no longer affect npcs now) can stand up better. outside of that, their role were to add layer upon layers of defense so their team can survive till VoD. with VoD gone, they can no longer compete with water mesmers in team defense, and cannot compete with ED rangers (or whatever their current incarnation is) in spike assistance.

guild wars, and GvG especially, are built upon a "melee-oriented" team concept. warriors are the centerpiece of all GvG teams, with the midline either helping the warriors kill, or preventing the opposing warriors from killing. the backline keeps everyone alive (especially the warriors) so they can score kills and perform their functions. each member of the team has specific functions that they need to fulfill for the team to work. in other words, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, each part cannot live without the other parts supporting.

the only times when non-standard professions (which, unsurprisingly enough, encompassses all the expansion professions) break into such a concept is when they can provide certain functions better than the standard professions, or they can provide a very specific function so well that it becomes game-ending.